Curse

Essence Snow · Apr 22, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by odins daughter

I completed all chapters and every minor quest with 3 chars, then Zaishen came into the scene, requiring that I redo all the main quests over and over again, to attain master of the north we have to redo the dungeons (not including VQ) over and over again.

2 things: 1) I was not aware that the Zaishen Quests/Bounties were required play. 2) For LMotN one only needs to do each dungeon 2 times, once in nm and once in hm. I actually think one can skip one and skill have enough points.

odins daughter · Apr 22, 2010, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

2 things: 1) I was not aware that the Zaishen Quests/Bounties were required play. 2) For LMotN one only needs to do each dungeon 2 times, once in nm and once in hm. I actually think one can skip one and skill have enough points.

The Zaishen quest repetition was for Z keys when I was chasing the Zaishen title to which ive given up on and the EOTN titles didnt included all the failures from rage quiters/leechers/bad pugs etc.
Also like ive said before i was playing with three chars so do your sums,its a lot of repeating.

Arduin · Apr 22, 2010, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Yeah, you chose to play with 3 characters, of course it'll be a lot of repeating.

Though for me it made a lot of difference if I did a dungeon with my Ranger, Monk or Necro. Sure it's the same dungeon, but approached much differently.

UnChosen · Apr 22, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neith

Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems people are saying make the drops better and people will play....wth are they getting this idea? If they make the drops "better" the speedclears will still continue and there will be more of them....that won't stop the SC it will make them worse because now they can get better loot, better items, equals more in game gold which means prices are driven either to the ground or sky rocket. How is making drops in the game better when we all know the speedclears will still continue? Get rid of the speedclears then add better drops, if you want better drops.

1. Psychological factor.

2. They can always do something about speed clears AFTER they re-balance the drops.

3. Make the better drop actually come out of MONSTERS instead of chests, and then there's no incentives to skip groups simply for speed. They can adjust the monsters so that they're unfarmable if they wish.

4. Even if they do nothing, having Speed Clears spread across various regions of the game is far better than having 99% of the population either doing UW/FoW/Selected dungeons, or solo farming somewhere.

5. Guild/Friends have more of an incentives to actually help.

reaper with no name · Apr 22, 2010, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

1. Psychological factor.

2. They can always do something about speed clears AFTER they re-balance the drops.

3. Make the better drop actually come out of MONSTERS instead of chests, and then there's no incentives to skip groups simply for speed. They can adjust the monsters so that they're unfarmable if they wish.

4. Even if they do nothing, having Speed Clears spread across various regions of the game is far better than having 99% of the population either doing UW/FoW/Selected dungeons, or solo farming somewhere.

5. Guild/Friends have more of an incentives to actually help.

Why are the drops worthless? Because the prices went down.

Why did the prices go down? Because SCs farmed the hell out of them.

What made these SCs possible? Broken builds like 600 and SF.

If you increase the drops instead of fixing SCs, the drops will simply continue to be overfarmed, and the prices of those drops will decrease even more until you're right back where you started.

The drops are balanced. The economy is not. This is why 600 and SF destroyed the economy. They made it impossible to make any money without power-trading, running, or farming your brains out. Before builds like that, it was possible to make a good amount of money simply by selling what you got during the completion of a high-end area, because it was actually worth something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

snip

Now this is an interesting viewpoint.

I'm going to counter it with another real-world example.

Joe's Pizza Shop has been on the same corner for generations. Pizza Hut moves in next door. Joe's Pizza Shop is a better business (ie, more skilled player). However, Pizza Hut is simply too powerful. Even though it doesn't get as much business, it's ability to operate at a loss (because it has an insanely overpowered build) allows it to outlast Joe's Pizza Shop, and it closes. Pizza Hut now gets all the business.

This is what builds like SF and 600 did to the game. Much like how big businesses have unfair advantages over smaller business that by rights should be better than they are (mainly due to lack of enforcement of anti-trust laws), SF and 600 crowd out other options by virtue of being ungodly powerful.

Of course, this isn't the real world, it's a game. Games are supposed to be fun. Having entire professions that aren't even useful is not fun. Being forced to farm 24/7, run stuff for people, or powertrade to make any money whatsoever is not fun. Having ridiculously huge gaps in wealth between casual players and rich players is not fun.

SF and 600 were builds that were so powerful they were almost impossible to challenge. And attempts to do so often backfired (see skeletons of dhuum). They trivialized the game's most difficult content and had a negative effect on the game as a whole. Something had to be done, for the good of the game.

Yelling @ Cats · Apr 22, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by odins daughter

Hm in the dungeons is now impossible, no more runners

Definitely

Before SF, it was impossible to even finish the game in NM.

I'm quite shocked that the first players to get SF managed to make it far enough in the game to cap it, and it is obvious that the only way anyone made it that far afterwards was from a previous owner of SF. Tough times indeed.

Neith · Apr 22, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by odins daughter

The Zaishen quest repetition was for Z keys when I was chasing the Zaishen title to which ive given up on and the EOTN titles didnt included all the failures from rage quiters/leechers/bad pugs etc.
Also like ive said before i was playing with three chars so do your sums,its a lot of repeating.

Again Odin,
YOU chose to work on those three characters. As far as LMotN...dungeons 2 times only per character (NM & HM). Vanquishes 1 time only per character. Missions 2 times only per character (HM & NM). Mapping 1 time for each character which you can get as you vanquish and you don't have to vanquish EVERY area either like you do for the vanquisher title. That is not that bad if you really stop to think about it.

As far as Zaishen title. There's more then one way to get that title. Yes Zaishen quests, missions and bounty may be the quickest way but you speak of diversity. Do zaishen challenges, JQ, AB, FA, and anything else that allows balthazar faction to accumulate and get your z-keys that way. I would love it if Anet would bring back the predictions in order to get z-keys but you don't see me making a QQ thread about how they took that away from me. Buy your keys for heavens sake if you want it that easy. Or stop working for titles on those other 2 characters. Trust me you won't be reported to child protective services for NOT getting those titles on those other two characters. Play those characters because you want to do something a little bit different, not because you think you are "Neglecting" them. You make it sound like Anet is putting a gun to your head saying you will grind out titles. You are choosing to do so. If Anet so chooses to rework skills to get rid of or slow down speedclears so be it. I'm all for it.

You speak of diversity....because there were runners and PUGS. that in many cases took out the diversity because PUGS were nowhere to be found in many cases because people were too busy looking for runs so your diversity theory went out the window there.

HigherMinion · Apr 22, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

When speedclears were atleast made tougher; I got more pugs to play with. I saw it as a good thing, but they should have nerfed those skills harder.

DigitalFear · Apr 22, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Nonono I want to keep running dungeon don't touch shadow form QQQQQQ

doomfodder · Apr 22, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

... as long as you have PLENTY of the following

TEAM DP REMOVERS
CONS
PATIENCE

Admittly the Co-Op nature of the PVE is SO MUCH MORE FUN with humans working together than just solo microing your heros (and NOT being able to micro your henchies) when being REPEATEADY party wiped by Fendi or Duncan or summit mobs in Vloxen, or etc... & then using your stack of team DP remover to RUN all the way back & to be slaughtered over and over again.

But sure, it can be done. I've done it several times cause I'm not fortunate enough to find a team of Humans... ces't la vie! Now if only there were "ONE SINGLE" HM dungeon PUG forming town SOMEWHERE in TYRIA, then at least PUGS would more hope of formin...

UnChosen · Apr 22, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why are the drops worthless? Because the prices went down.

Why did the prices go down? Because SCs farmed the hell out of them.

What made these SCs possible? Broken builds like 600 and SF.

If you increase the drops instead of fixing SCs, the drops will simply continue to be overfarmed, and the prices of those drops will decrease even more until you're right back where you started.

The drops are balanced. The economy is not. This is why 600 and SF destroyed the economy. They made it impossible to make any money without power-trading, running, or farming your brains out. Before builds like that, it was possible to make a good amount of money simply by selling what you got during the completion of a high-end area, because it was actually worth something.

Then keep adding drops and make a NEW economy. You know, like what EVERY online RPG does except for GW. Even if it means just reskined "dark platinum weapons" or "silver phoenix blade" its fine....new stuff = valuable, old stuff is not. This is what GW has to do ever since they decided to add the ridiculous inscription system that made the value of everything based on skin only. It just made easy to get skin = worthless, but hard to get get skins are ridiculous to get...everything in between got eliminated. You know perfect golden long swords actually did worth something back then, inscriptions killed off more of the so called "economy" than 600/SF ever did.

Either way I want LOTS OF STUFF even if they're worthless, because its an online RPG and I like picking up stuff. Psychological Factor. Having 200 troll tusk spew out from a chest would give more excitement over two gems.

doomfodder · Apr 22, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Having ridiculously huge gaps in wealth between casual players and rich players is not fun.

I would agree with that to a point... since having FUN is the perogative of the individual.

However, In Game "Wealth" is NOT something for which the casual gamer is Entitled! In general, people that play the game ALOT as opposed to CASUALLY in order to accumulate massive amounts of In Game "Wealth", (in other words EARNED - farmin, powertrading, providing services/runs, market visionaries, etc.), achieve FUN through those "means & items" that they've accumlated. Casual gamers CAN'T achieve fun that way because they simply don't play enough!

Personnaly I don't envy the UBER rich in the game, eventually there's nothing left to spend their $ on... I mean how many stacks of ecto can U actually fit into your 10 storage panes & 9 mule accounts? 300 stacks? 500 stacks? then what?

Pandora's box · Apr 22, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

... Admittly the Co-Op nature of the PVE is SO MUCH MORE FUN with humans working together than just solo microing your heros ...

Ah, umm, no. Depends on playing style I suppose. I play this game very much like MtG; Figuring out skill combo's for my heroes and trying them out is an essential part of the fun. (which makes me feel very uneasy btw about GW2 - without heroes and a limited skillset). And the simple truth is that the hero/hench AI in many cases reacts much more efficiently than humans ever can. Though not always I admit (e.g. Assassin's promise is often used just before an opponent dies without calculating the casting time - so too late: opponent already died when the casting is completed)

I find it a good idea to increase droprates in general, not only improving endlevel chests. It would encourage people to keep playing after a nerf. Someone explained my earlier suggestions as 'longer stay in dungeons should automatically improve loot' - that is not correct. What I meant was that if the result of balancing is that it takes much longer to find good loot, than the loot should improve equally. It's ok to me if UW takes an hour instead of 20 minutes - as long as the reward is 3x as good as well... (and I mean the endlevelchest, not the ecto's dropping).

DigitalFear · Apr 23, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

then what?

Armbrace stacks

Skyy High · Apr 23, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

2. They can always do something about speed clears AFTER they re-balance the drops.

Not really. Then SC'ers would just get the first chance to stock up on the new cool items, and after the nerf they'd be able to sell them for massive profit since the supply would be drastically reduced.

UnChosen · Apr 23, 2010, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Not really. Then SC'ers would just get the first chance to stock up on the new cool items, and after the nerf they'd be able to sell them for massive profit since the supply would be drastically reduced.

Then do it at the same time.

HigherMinion · Apr 23, 2010, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Not really. Then SC'ers would just get the first chance to stock up on the new cool items, and after the nerf they'd be able to sell them for massive profit since the supply would be drastically reduced.

Their wealth will either there or they will simply start doing things the normal way. You can't say because they'll have an advantage it should be kept; it will balance itself out if they're totally obliterated and farming becomes impossible.

Neith · Apr 23, 2010, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Their wealth will either there or they will simply start doing things the normal way. You can't say because they'll have an advantage it should be kept; it will balance itself out if they're totally obliterated and farming becomes impossible.

Not if speedclears are nerfed obilerated after they put in better drops. The SC's will stock up on those items because they can do it quicker then a "normal" group can. so the post that you are quoting is correct.

odins daughter · Apr 24, 2010, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neith

Again Odin,
YOU chose to work on those three characters. As far as LMotN...dungeons 2 times only per character (NM & HM). Vanquishes 1 time only per character. Missions 2 times only per character (HM & NM). Mapping 1 time for each character which you can get as you vanquish and you don't have to vanquish EVERY area either like you do for the vanquisher title. That is not that bad if you really stop to think about it.

As far as Zaishen title. There's more then one way to get that title. Yes Zaishen quests, missions and bounty may be the quickest way but you speak of diversity. Do zaishen challenges, JQ, AB, FA, and anything else that allows balthazar faction to accumulate and get your z-keys that way. I would love it if Anet would bring back the predictions in order to get z-keys but you don't see me making a QQ thread about how they took that away from me. Buy your keys for heavens sake if you want it that easy. Or stop working for titles on those other 2 characters. Trust me you won't be reported to child protective services for NOT getting those titles on those other two characters. Play those characters because you want to do something a little bit different, not because you think you are "Neglecting" them. You make it sound like Anet is putting a gun to your head saying you will grind out titles. You are choosing to do so. If Anet so chooses to rework skills to get rid of or slow down speedclears so be it. I'm all for it.

You speak of diversity....because there were runners and PUGS. that in many cases took out the diversity because PUGS were nowhere to be found in many cases because people were too busy looking for runs so your diversity theory went out the window there.

Neith .i do and have done many of the points you state here, before the 600/sf were about, during and after, because now i have no choice because of the decimation of sin sf.
The idea of Anet putting a gun to my head is, actually a fair similie,because thats exactly what Anet have done anyway,they dangle the carrot in your face to say that our accomplishments can be carried over to GW2, SO BLOODY WELL GET GRINDING!

suggesting that I should quit playing with my other chars is to be honest a dumb statement( no malice intended) and to be so bold as to suggest SF/600 killed of the Pugs is another one.
I use to run Gloom and City in DOA only, mainly when the ZB came to town and there was never a shortage of PUGS trying to accomplish these despite the runners which suggests to me the balance between ppl wanting to be run and not, was 50/50.

Lets be honest...GW is dying on its feet, more people quit playing than what are coming in and I dont still want to be playing GW when GW2 is released, I want to be ready to load GW2 and start playing from day one, while I was using my sin i could see the end of my grinding in the near future but now its seems a lifetime away, this is what im bitter about.

QueenofDeath · Apr 24, 2010, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

you say the Droknar runs ruined the game?why?

It's very simple to explain the reason WHY. The players that ran through the content and the runners that ran them through it ruin the sequence of "UPGRADING" in the game thus killing TRADE from YAKS BEND to Droknars because they BYPASSED the ARMOR and WEAPONS upgrade areas like Henge of Denravi, Lions Arch, Yaks Bend and some of those before and after them.

Players who ran the content never bought these UPGRADES thus destroying part of the economy because of it and those that had been farming and storing up these resources for SALE to get these MID-LEVEL UPGRADES LOST all that TRADE and that would have related to millions of credits of revenue.

Players who ran the content never bought or upgraded to MID LEVEL content they went straight for the HIGH END GEAR, WEAPONS and most especially SKILLS. You had level 1-10's running ELITE skills in ASCALON PVP ARENA's. You had players who could SOLO whole GROUPS in the YAK's BEND ARENA because they ran the content and got the high end ARMORS +80/20's and ELITE SKILLS and then came back from level 11-15 easily kicking everyones butt who WERE PLAYING THE CORRECT WAY.

If you played DIABO 2 or NEVERWINTER NIGHTS or just about ANY OTHER RPG game you know you DON'T GET TO RUN THE CONTENT to the END CONTENT and get all the good stuff the FIRST DAY. Not unless of course you play online in CHEAT/EXPLOIT mode and just piggy back with someone ONLINE to increase your levels without doing anything. This is NOT RPG playing this is NOT intended to be done. But, some little whiney tards were too lazy to do it themselves. Whinning about I have to work, I have to goto School I have to blah blah blah whine whine whine and I want EVERYTHING EVERYONE ELSE HAS NOW! hahah

So I say CONTINUE TO STOP ALLOWING PLAYERS TO RUN THE CONTENT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE ANET I LOVE IT.

) Make these lazy players earn it or quit so we can have a world where everything is fair an equal by correctly playing the world an adventure and not exploiting the game mechanics of it.

Quote:

Before SF, it was impossible to even finish the game in NM.

Maybe for YOU because YOU suk. I finished the game without a run or without playing SF. I love how some sorry players say the game is impossible to finish because they don't won't to take the TIME to finish it as it was intended. Plus have such shallow one track minds they can't figure out builds to defeat each area that becomes hard. Poor wittle babies they couldn't beat it the first couple of times through so IT's IMPOSSIBLE. LMAO